tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7186734097245460670.post2521907741550770168..comments2024-03-08T23:57:17.923+02:00Comments on Achas L'Maala V'Sheva L'Matta: Lipkin's ParallelogramYechezkel Hirshmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18417734718880643428noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7186734097245460670.post-67879956287075681222010-05-11T19:37:32.813+03:002010-05-11T19:37:32.813+03:00You never write :(You never write :(Baruch Peltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13178212221463356386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7186734097245460670.post-49726854960170664952010-05-10T12:12:55.119+03:002010-05-10T12:12:55.119+03:00Indeed, I have taken the liberty on occasion to ag...Indeed, I have taken the liberty on occasion to agree with people who have publicly distanced themselves from the chareidi appelation. I try not to be a disagreeable person.<br /><br />I mentioned it in this post:<br /><br /><a href="http://achaslmaala.blogspot.com/2009/08/critics-rave.html" rel="nofollow"> The Critics Rave</a><br /><br />Stay in touch, Baruch.Yechezkel Hirshmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18417734718880643428noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7186734097245460670.post-22357774150755364192010-05-10T10:14:16.813+03:002010-05-10T10:14:16.813+03:00I just wanted to post a comment (against my better...I just wanted to post a comment (against my better judgement). The comment is that something Yechezkel wrote above is not true:<br /><i>It is important for me to clearly stress that I am not categorizing people. I am not relegating anybody to one camp or another...I don't apply labels. I just print them out and let everybody apply their own.</i><br /><br />I refer the reader to the following link:<br />http://achaslmaala.blogspot.com/2009/02/do-chareidim-have-wings.html<br /><br />In said link, Yechezkel makes the following assertion:<br /><i>The definition that the chareidim (e.g., myself, Rabbi Moshe Grylak, Rabbi Noigershall, Yeshaya HaNavi, etc.) give thmeselves is the one I presented at the beginning of this post and it is generally a large heterogeneous group consisting both of R"Y minded and RaShb"Y minded chareidim.<br /><br />The definiton that the non-chareidim (e.g., Harry Maryles, Gil Student, Natan Slifkin, Naomi Ragen, and others) give us is typically limited to RaShb"Y minded chareidim and the most extremist among them, to boot.</i><br /><br />Yechezkel clearly classifies R' Maryles and the others as what his book describes as NCOJs. My understanding of the "1a7b philosophy" as expounded in his book and blog is that it is entirely inconsistant. Yechezkel wants to claim he is only espousing Torah values and not labeling people while OTOH...well...labeling people.<br />--Baruch PeltaBaruchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08051421355654178857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7186734097245460670.post-24648735476583208202010-05-09T12:09:08.570+03:002010-05-09T12:09:08.570+03:00Bizarre.Bizarre.Yechezkel Hirshmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18417734718880643428noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7186734097245460670.post-17332482642718155802010-05-09T11:56:34.098+03:002010-05-09T11:56:34.098+03:00That "SA" above was me.That "SA" above was me.Michael Lipkinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11501487897038161582noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7186734097245460670.post-29223581843620803962010-05-09T11:53:54.104+03:002010-05-09T11:53:54.104+03:00Aside from your unnecessary ad-hominom attack on m...Aside from your unnecessary ad-hominom attack on me, I find your post interesting.<br /><br />However, I stand by my comment. If you look carefully at the paragraphs you quoted of yourself regarding "victim" you'll see that any Jew living is Israel now, and certainly anyone who has made aliyah in the past 60 years would not fit your definition of "victim".<br /><br />Look at your bold words:<br /><br />A person who makes aliyah from the US:<br /><br />- Is likely non-aggressive<br />- Had personal control over the situation, (He didn't have to move)<br />- Was presented with demands and ultimatums. (Look at the PA or Hamas charter.)<br />- Again, contributed to the event by moving.<br />- And of course, such a person knowingly and needlessly exposes himself to the situation.<br /><br />Bingo. A lot of people blown up on buses in the early 90's were not victims according to R. Hirshman. This is not some theoretical parallelogram, this is exactly what you are saying.<br /><br />As to the more heinous crime I committed of, C"V, disagreeing with Chazal. Of course I did no such thing. You're playing a bit a straw-man game on that one. I never really defended the actions of these teens. However you'd be hard pressed to apply that Rashi in to-to to this case. <br /><br />Negligence is not binary. The law recognizes levels of negligence and in tort cases often awards damages based on percentage of negligence. You even allude to this in your stolen car example by mentioning the concept of "gross negligence". Conversely, victim-hood is not binary. <br /><br />Should these kids have spray-painted Jewish stars in Bet? No. I cringe every time I hear someone mention that we should do things that bring us down to the level of the terrorists. Is walking through Bet with an Israeli flag negligent? I say no, you may say yes. Regardless, you cannot, in all fairness, use that Rashi, to say these kids were not victims. <br /><br />I wish you could see how your thinkin is really a page right of the playbook of the world's radical liberal left and the Islamicists. They constantly use your negligence/victim logic to turn terrorism on it's head. <br /><br />The main issue here in Beit Shemesh is not about levels of negligence or victim-hood. If the case at hand were to be brought as a tort case you could make an argument for reduced damages based on the behavior of these kids. But do you really intend to mitigate the criminal behavior of a bunch of grown men who claim, by their dress and label, to be exemplars of Jewish piety? <br /><br />Of course this is one case of dozens, in which there was no "provocation". Rabbi Slifkin's main point is that if these creatures are allowed to continue their terroristic behavior someone is going to get killed. By being a self-proclaimed Chareidi apologist you're helping bring that day, c"v, closer.<br /><br />Stick with your definition of "Chareidi". Don't defend these people. And leave out your little caveat about Kanois. There is simply nobody alive today who we can trust to instigate Kanoyis L'shem Shamayim.<br /><br />Btw, I'm sure you're aware that the famous mathemtician you quote was Rav Yisrael Salanter's son. Unfortunately, we're not related.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13561977534718251278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7186734097245460670.post-44815259148825927682010-05-09T11:31:32.733+03:002010-05-09T11:31:32.733+03:00To Dov --
From the book as published (page 59):
...To Dov --<br /><br />From the book as published (page 59):<br /><br />>><i>It is important for me to clearly stress that I am not categorizing people. I am not relegating anybody to one camp or another. My purpose is to define what is a chareidi - not to define who is a chareidi. </i><br /><br />I don't apply labels. I just print them out and let everybody apply their own.<br /><br />The issue of this post is somebody callously distorting my written words and misrepresenting them. I will counter anyone who does that regardless of who they are or what they are.<br /><br />Incidentally, I am really confused about your comment because all through the post I did not apply any "labels" to anybody that I referred to. The only label I gave to Mr. Lipkin was "Gentleman".Yechezkel Hirshmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18417734718880643428noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7186734097245460670.post-69741853173959090942010-05-09T10:17:16.063+03:002010-05-09T10:17:16.063+03:00Yechezkel my friend, I told you even before you pu...Yechezkel my friend, I told you even before you published your book that if you want to maintain integrity in reverting to the Tanach's definition of "chareidi," as distinct from the modern-day self-selected group that chooses to call itself chareidi, you need to avoid siding with anyone who calls themselves chareidi and opposing anyone who does not call themselves chareidi.<br /><br />There is no question that if you were here in person you would conclude that:<br /><br />1) Mr. Lipkin is chareidi according to your definition of the word, and<br />2) The RBS-B hooligans are not chareidi according to your definition of the word, and<br />3) Mr. Lipkin's opposition to the RBS-B hooligans is in fact completely in line with your own quest to oppose those who hurt the religious Jewish world.<br /><br />As such, there is no difference between Mr. Lipkin commenting on-line about the RBS-B hooligans, who are creating tremendous chillul Hashem in their aveiros le'shem chareidi'us, and your own commenting on-line about a semi-Orthodox female basketball player who you think is causing a chilul Hashem in her own actions le'shem "Orthodoxy."<br /><br />You've chosen to write your modern-day mesilas yesharim using a word that has a lot of modern-day connotations that are contrary to your ideals. Imagine if a book on Mitzvas Yishuv HaAretz tried to claim that every Jew living in Eretz Yisroel is a "zionist" because the root meaning of "zionist" is being a support of Tzion. Would every frum Jew who is mekayem mitzvas yishuv ha'aretz support my calling them a zionist? I don't think so.<br /><br />You can of course use words however you want to. I have no opposition to your calling me chareidi since I am chareidi by your own (and the Tanach's) definition. But if you're going to the Tanach's definition, you need to look carefully at other people's uses of the word, and be sure that you're not associating with the word in conflict with your own principles, as I think you are in this case.Bruce Krulwichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16506129141459374630noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7186734097245460670.post-20232062553969339822010-05-06T23:55:15.654+03:002010-05-06T23:55:15.654+03:00>>The yeshivish / chassidic world has far be...>><i>The yeshivish / chassidic world has far better advocates than this blog. They just do not have the time.<br /></i><br /><br />I mentioned this on page 20 of my book. Man, you haven't read anything.<br /><br />>><i>Prosecuting a 50 year old lady for sitting at the front of a bus,</i><br /><br />I don't think you really read neither my material nor hers. I don't want to get into it here. I've written enough in the posts.<br /><br />>><i>and wide use of the NCOJ label </i><br /><br />I totally lost you here.Yechezkel Hirshmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18417734718880643428noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7186734097245460670.post-62958519813000150962010-05-06T21:43:54.858+03:002010-05-06T21:43:54.858+03:00"Still, in my line of work as official charei..."Still, in my line of work as official chareidi apologist"<br />The yeshivish / chassidic world has far better advocates than this blog. They just do not have the time.<br />Prosecuting a 50 year old lady for sitting at the front of a bus, and wide use of the NCOJ label is not the way to represent the yeshivish / chassidic communities.<br /><br />Dallas JewAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7186734097245460670.post-42537357022687398202010-05-06T21:10:19.169+03:002010-05-06T21:10:19.169+03:00>>Tochechah (the rebuke or warnings of Bechu...>><i>Tochechah (the rebuke or warnings of Bechukosai and Ki Tavoh) is part of Judaism, not its central theme that this site makes it to be.</i><br /><br />As I wrote somewhere else, every time I see a comment from you it is like a flashing neon sign that says: "I haven't read your book and I haven't a clue about your shitos."Yechezkel Hirshmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18417734718880643428noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7186734097245460670.post-83304220447759498512010-05-06T21:07:30.247+03:002010-05-06T21:07:30.247+03:00To Rabbi Harry --
>>Yecheskel, I must say t...To Rabbi Harry --<br /><br />>><i>Yecheskel, I must say that I am flattered by your obssession with me.</i><br /><br />That's right. I see your blog posts in my sleep. That's because I fall asleep when I read them (okay, this time I am joking!)<br /><br />>><i>You have added to the number of people who now know about this incident in RBS.</i><br /><br />How true! But you tell over these incidents to tell your readers how evil everybody is. I do it to tell my readers it's not as bad as other people make it look.<br /><br />>><i>In any case, thanks for all thosee free plugs. </i><br /><br />I wouldn't think of charging for them. Enjoy!Yechezkel Hirshmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18417734718880643428noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7186734097245460670.post-4161601387318257272010-05-06T20:35:26.535+03:002010-05-06T20:35:26.535+03:00Tochechah (the rebuke or warnings of Bechukosai an...Tochechah (the rebuke or warnings of Bechukosai and Ki Tavoh) is part of Judaism, not its central theme that this site makes it to be. We read it in a lower voice and only call one person to the Torah for the reading of the warnings.<br /><br />Dallas JewAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7186734097245460670.post-25408168404725337902010-05-06T20:22:29.166+03:002010-05-06T20:22:29.166+03:00Rebbi vamori rav avigdor miller ztzl was told by h...Rebbi vamori rav avigdor miller ztzl was told by his rebbis in slabodka in lita to read NT.koran, etc in order to tashiv...Beit vegannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7186734097245460670.post-38368600730438225542010-05-06T19:45:52.746+03:002010-05-06T19:45:52.746+03:00Maryles....i saw mamash apikorsus on your blog whi...Maryles....i saw mamash apikorsus on your blog which u deleted...maybe u still have children to marry off... When u know 1 above 7 below by heart maybe ill talk to you ...but at least u have a name not like your haver DB...1 a 7b..is this weeks parsha...Beit vegannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7186734097245460670.post-1783692505308169692010-05-06T18:19:45.036+03:002010-05-06T18:19:45.036+03:00How much to blame the woman in cases like Dina in ...How much to blame the woman in cases like Dina in Bereshis is actually a dispute between the descendants Yitzchok and Yishmael.<br />In the case of Dina, she was not punished by her family. Similar events occur this very day in the Arab world and "honor" killings are done. Often only the woman is punished.<br /><br />While you bring down a death penalty in Devarim, the Gemara concludes that a court that executed once in 70 years is considered a "bloody" court.<br />Many of the death penalties mentioned in Devarim very likely were never actually executed by any Beis Din.<br /><br />Dallas JewAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7186734097245460670.post-68967576380382829412010-05-06T18:19:22.348+03:002010-05-06T18:19:22.348+03:00You wrote:
"I personally do not believe it is...You wrote:<br />"I personally do not believe it is proper for anybody to introduce these incidents into the media. Not Rabbi Slifkin even though he lives there and certainly not Rabbi Maryles who doesn't nor anybody. I think that if somebody is close enough to do something - go do it. For those who aren't close, who needs to know about it?"<br /><br />My response, or rather, the response of Justice Brandeis (http://www.law.louisville.edu/library/collections/brandeis/node/196):<br />"Publicity is justly commended as a remedy for social and industrial diseases. Sunlight is said to be the best of disinfectants; electric light the most efficient policeman."Dorron Katzinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08275399228339470400noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7186734097245460670.post-34550970612019472702010-05-06T16:19:23.241+03:002010-05-06T16:19:23.241+03:00Yecheskel, I must say that I am flattered by your ...Yecheskel, I must say that I am flattered by your obssession with me. <br /><br />What is interesting about this particular post is that you just did what you accuse me of doing - spreading Lashon Hara. You have added to the number of people who now know about this incident in RBS. (...unless you think only my readers read your blog - which is possible I suppose. But I doubt it.)<br /><br />In any case, thanks for all thosee free plugs. Keep them coming. I invite all readers who haven't done so yet to go over to my blog at:<br /><br />http://haemtza.blogspot.com/<br /><br />and spend some time there. You won't be disappointed.Harry Maryleshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09936405163453714823noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7186734097245460670.post-51152629479901871472010-05-06T15:59:39.977+03:002010-05-06T15:59:39.977+03:00"This device was actually invented in 1864 by..."This device was actually invented in 1864 by Yom Tov Lipman Lipkin in St. Petersburg."<br /><br />The son of Reb Yisroel Salanter! See http://www.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/salanter/11_12_06_his_sonl.pdfAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7186734097245460670.post-46152730418454863812010-05-06T11:06:15.316+03:002010-05-06T11:06:15.316+03:00Briliant post r hezkal...thank g-d we have you to...Briliant post r hezkal...thank g-d we have you to look at these laitzim marles, dov ber and slifkin...i dont look because of frumkite...as with emannual, i am hashas to sheker in addition to lason harah...like r tzvi meir (and you)say, we were not there and dont know...Beit vegannoreply@blogger.com