tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7186734097245460670.post2890820165983416196..comments2024-03-08T23:57:17.923+02:00Comments on Achas L'Maala V'Sheva L'Matta: Uncle Why Leaves the Jews "Open to Interpretation"Yechezkel Hirshmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18417734718880643428noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7186734097245460670.post-78086398759405241102010-03-22T19:50:56.058+02:002010-03-22T19:50:56.058+02:00"I am at a total loss to figure out what'..."I am at a total loss to figure out what's bothering you."<br /><br />it is a major point. see this link:<br />http://js-kit.com/api/static/pop_comments?ref=http://hirhurim.blogspot.com&path=/114988152366495959<br /><br />and scroll down to the first comment by lamedzayin, where he (accurately) summarizes rav herschel schachter's position on this. other contemporary rabbis would almost certainly argue with rav schachter on this, but that is the point i am trying to make.<br /><br />kol tuv,<br />joshjoshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7186734097245460670.post-17234430573289261442010-03-16T14:59:05.431+02:002010-03-16T14:59:05.431+02:00>>oy, nebach on the Shaages Aryeh and the Gr...>><i>oy, nebach on the Shaages Aryeh and the Gra, who were so ignorant didn't know this...but by all means, reinvent the Vilna Gaon and Shaages Aryeh so that they would subscribe to contemporary chareidi beliefs.</i><br /><br />I am at a total loss to figure out what's bothering you.<br /><br />>><i>but they *were* koveah it for us. just because of our inability to understand the gemara correctly, machlokes crept in.</i> <br /><br />You mean like Rashi says in Temura 16a (top of the page) and Sota 47a (s.v. Eshkolos)? Yes, indeed, this is exactly what I meant as well (I don't argue much with Rashi!).<br /><br />>><i>but you seemed to be casting it as that from the time of Mattan Torah until it was determined by Acharonim, it was up in the air and anything was acceptable.</i><br /><br />No, I mean exactly like Rashi (referenced above) writes. Perhaps I wasn't sufficiently clear. But even if this is the case, you are obviously reading me the way you want to read me (evidently you have to convince yourself that there is some point of contention in our viewpoints for some inexplicable reason)as opposed to assuming that I hold by the conventional viewpoint (a la Rashi).<br /><br />>><i>not necessarily. in the Qumran caves, both Rashi and Rabbenu Tam tefillin were found. so perhaps that particular machlokes goes way back...</i><br /><br />Here you definitely misunderstood me. (I guess I definitely wasn't clear). That particular machlokes <i><b>definitely</b></i> goes way back. It is all but impossible to maintain that Klal Yisroel for generations wore their tefillin only one way and along comes Rabenu Tam to give a new 12th century opinion and - voila - now we have a second option. This machlokes was alive and well way before Rashi/RT and the shaos zmanios was alive way before the GRA and MA (as you duly noted). It was only during ther period of Rashi that two prominent gedolim were koveah their shitos in writing and we use their names to refer to the 2 tzdaddim. Same with GRA and MA (although it is known that MA is actually Tosafos).<br /><br />The point of my post is that the origin of a halachic uncertainty is not so important. What is important is when it was "ironed out". Some parts were settled in the Torah. Other parts were settled by chazal and other parts were settled later. <br /><br />Having said all this, I do not think that we are arguing over anything of substance.Yechezkel Hirshmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18417734718880643428noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7186734097245460670.post-74588829475938646122010-03-16T02:26:40.395+02:002010-03-16T02:26:40.395+02:00"They also knew the proper arrangements for t..."They also knew the proper arrangements for the parshios in the tefillin."<br /><br />not necessarily. in the Qumran caves, both Rashi and Rabbenu Tam tefillin were found. so perhaps that particular machlokes goes way back...<br /><br />kt,<br />joshjoshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7186734097245460670.post-12324748262623075262010-03-16T02:17:07.590+02:002010-03-16T02:17:07.590+02:00"So it wasn't so clear cut to the Shaagas..."So it wasn't so clear cut to the Shaagas Aryeh that he wasn't a Rishon."<br />oy, nebach on the Shaages Aryeh and the Gra, who were so ignorant didn't know this. no, this was not it at all. what a corruption of the Shaages Aryeh and Gra! (and there are others, into this day, who maintain the same position -- namely that Ravina and Rav Ashi are sof horaah, but other than that, while these distinctions did show levels of interpretation, with Acharonim discussing Rishonim, etc., that is not what a posek is <b>obligated</b> to do. rather, a (major) posek must even argue with Rishonim if he believes that he has the correct interpretation of the gemara.) but by all means, reinvent the Vilna Gaon and Shaages Aryeh so that they would subscribe to contemporary chareidi beliefs.<br /><br />"that an earlier era was not koveah for us"<br />but they *were* koveah it for us. just because of our inability to understand the gemara correctly, machlokes crept in. but you seemed to be casting it as that from the time of Mattan Torah until it was determined by Acharonim, it was up in the air and anything was acceptable.<br /><br />kt,<br />joshjoshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7186734097245460670.post-61622604474563559932010-03-15T20:51:02.514+02:002010-03-15T20:51:02.514+02:00>>do you really think that the Tannaim and A...>><i>do you really think that the Tannaim and Amoraim did not know how to count a halachic hour?! what evidence do you have that Tannaim and Amoraim held by different shitos in this? this is a machlokes rooted in how to understand the gemara, but surely, in many, many instances, it was absolutely clear to earlier generations what it meant, not "open to interpretation".<br /></i><br /><br />Of course the Tanaim and Amoraim knew how to figure an Halachic hour. They also knew the proper arrangements for the parshios in the tefillin. Unfortunately they did not divulge this information to us. And that is my entire point: It is not out of bounds for a later generation to squabble about things that an earlier era was not koveah for us. It doesn't mean they didn't know it for themselves.<br /><br />>><i>also, it is a matter of modern Orthodox dispute whether Acharonim can argue with Rishonim and Gaonim...and yet, this is precisely what Gra and Shaages Aryeh do all the time -- argue on the Rishonim...</i><br /><br />I have no problem with this. From after the Talmudic era, the lines and rules do get a bit blurred. Keep in mind that today we walk into our cheders and see nicely laid out charts about when the tekufas of Geonim, Rishonim, Achronim began and ended (or we read books from Rabbi Wein). I would assume the Shaagas Aryeh's cheder did not have such clear cut charts (and I am cetain he had no books from Rabbi Wein). So it wasn't so clear cut to the Shaagas Aryeh that he wasn't a Rishon.Yechezkel Hirshmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18417734718880643428noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7186734097245460670.post-52486608400162923912010-03-15T19:53:27.846+02:002010-03-15T19:53:27.846+02:00scratch that (deleted comment). gra has rishonim a...scratch that (deleted comment). gra has rishonim and geonim to rely upon for this particular case.<br /><br />despite this, i don't believe that the Tannaim and Amoraim disputed what an hour was. rather, it was a dispute rooted on what the gemara itself means.<br /><br />kol tuv,<br />joshjoshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7186734097245460670.post-41763486336773130432010-03-15T18:32:58.649+02:002010-03-15T18:32:58.649+02:00"We still do not know how exactly we count an...<i>"We still do not know how exactly we count an Halachic hour to know when the third hour actually arrives. This was indeed "open to interpretation" until the era of the early Achronim when the matter was clarified into two valid opinions - sunrise to sunset (Gra) or alos hashachar to dusk (Magen Avrohom). "</i><br /><br />do you really think that the Tannaim and Amoraim did not know how to count a halachic hour?! what evidence do you have that Tannaim and Amoraim held by different shitos in this? this is a machlokes rooted in how to understand the gemara, but surely, in many, many instances, it was absolutely clear to earlier generations what it meant, not "open to interpretation".<br /><br />also, it is a matter of modern Orthodox dispute whether Acharonim can argue with Rishonim and Gaonim. And the Rambam argued on all the Geonim on a matter of modeh bemiktzas because he found a 500 year old gemara which lent new insight.<br /><br />you write:<br /><i>"Thus, we consider it audacious for someone from a later era to say, "Hey, since these Tanaim argued about it, we see that it is open to interpretation, so lets find new ways to interpret it.""</i><br />and yet, this is precisely what Gra and Shaages Aryeh do all the time -- argue on the Rishonim, on the basis of their own understanding of the gemara. were they going against Masorah? (well, yes, against the *new* consensus of what the masorah is.)<br /><br />roughly, what you write is true, in many cases. but i think you are overstating it, quite a lot.<br /><br />kol tuv,<br />joshjoshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.com