tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7186734097245460670.post3849375566141764810..comments2024-03-08T23:57:17.923+02:00Comments on Achas L'Maala V'Sheva L'Matta: By Your Hand - the Sin of NovYechezkel Hirshmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18417734718880643428noreply@blogger.comBlogger3125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7186734097245460670.post-54186804791755414022018-12-05T21:36:19.695+02:002018-12-05T21:36:19.695+02:00Thank you for having the 'time and energy'...Thank you for having the 'time and energy' to direct me to the places where you 'dealt with my concerns.' You are right that I hadn't seen the first post you linked to now, although now that I have seen it I fail to see how it addresses even one of my concerns. Obviously I must be lacking in intelligence, please forgive me.<br /><br />With regards to lo sasgir, as it happens I did already see the 'thinking like a jew' post. I was just pointing out the fundamental flaw in your argument there, as the issur only applies to someone who will return to enslavement (in case that wasn't clear enough, forcing either an eved c'naani or a Jew to leave Eretz Yisrael does not fall under this prohibition if on his return he will not be enslaved again).<br /><br />You might think that 3 and 4 do not relate to your blogs, but this is wrong. What Torah observant Jewish citizens can or cannot do is dependent on what governments can or cannot do, especially when it comes to mesira. Mesira is only relevant when the authorities that the nimsar is given to will impose punishments that they have no right to do.Daniel Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14576308228864631191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7186734097245460670.post-67880754502222587342018-12-05T18:33:33.962+02:002018-12-05T18:33:33.962+02:00I fully agree with your "confession" in ...I fully agree with your "confession" in your opening line that you were not following from the beginning, and I do not have the time or energy to go over things that I have already written in previous posts. <br /><br />I dealt with most of your concerns in number 1 in this post:<br /><br />achaslmaala.blogspot.com/2015/09/mesira-iv-mesira-vs-lashon-hara-whats.html<br /><br />As for 2, I originally brought it up in:<br /><br />http://achaslmaala.blogspot.com/2016/06/mesira-xiii-thinking-like-jew.html<br /><br /><br />3 and 4 do not relate to my blogs because I am not discussing what governments can or cannot do, only what Torah observant Jewish citizens can or cannot do.<br />Yechezkel Hirshmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18417734718880643428noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7186734097245460670.post-59358095478234078532018-07-05T23:55:16.826+03:002018-07-05T23:55:16.826+03:00I had not planned to get involved with this issue,...I had not planned to get involved with this issue, as I wasn't following from the beginning and I agree with a lot that you have written. However, as the implication of this post is that distinguished talmidei chachamim have encouraged a capital crime (mesirah), I believe this is not accurate, and those who have argued so far have not answered the points raised in the blog, I felt it necessary to speak up. Excuse me for being lengthy.<br /><br />Firstly the points that I agree with: 1) Mrs. Leifer is not a rodef and presents no current threat to anyone. 2) She deserves a fair trial, and is innocent until proven guilty. 2) She also has a right to have her claims heard in court in Israel before extradition is considered. 3) Extradition should not be taken lightly, and should not be done unless it is absolutely necessary.<br /><br />Now here's where I disagree:<br /><br />1) Readers probably wondered why mesirah (handing someone over to non-Jewish authorities) should be such a severe crime. Correct me if I am wrong, but the 'why' question does not seem to have been raised in the blog.<br />The Rosh (Bava Kama 10:27) explains that a moser is a rodef, as once someone falls into the hands of the non-Jews they will have no mercy on him, and eventually kill him. It therefore follows that even if we are dealing with a criminal, it is strictly forbidden to hand him over to non-Jews.<br />Now you may think that nothing has changed, and the Australian courts are similar to the non-Jews in the times of the gemara. I believe that this is not the case, and therefore mesirah is no longer a capital crime. It is still strictly forbidden to hand someone over to those who will damage him for no reason, but if we are dealing with a criminal who will only get what he deserves, and our own courts are not capable of enforcing this, it is ok to use the non-Jewish ones.<br /><br />2) The prohibition of 'lo sasgir' refers to returning a Jewish slave back to his master in chutz la'aretz. It does not apply to anyone who will not be enslaved. Nevertheless, forcing a Jew out of Eretz Yisrael is not something to be taken lightly (even leaving voluntarily is allowed only for a good reason).<br /><br />3) Non-jewish governments, like Jewish ones, do have the right to impose fair punishments beyond those mentioned in the Torah. Even when someone poses no current danger, if he or she gets away with crimes committed in the past this encourages a situation of 'a man swallowing up his fellow.' Therefore, someone guilty of crimes reasonably proscribed by the law of the land, even if they do not involve direct Torah transgressions, may legitimately be imprisoned by the relevant authorities. One who aids this process is not a moser.<br /><br />4) I don't know a lot about extradition, but my assumption is that the idea behind it is that a court based in the country where a crime took place is better equipped to rule on it. If a terrorist murdered people in Tel-Aviv (or committed a less severe crime) and fled to Australia, I imagine the Israeli government would (justifiably) not be so happy about letting the Australian courts dealing with it. We cannot expect this to happen if we do not act similarly. Thus there may be grounds for extradition in some cases, dependent on whatever we have agreed to in the treaty (I do not know what this is).<br /><br />My conclusion is that it was appropriate for the Israeli authorities to arrest Mrs. Liefer. Her case must be heard here, and all the above factors should be taken into account when deciding what should be done.<br />Even one who disagrees with some or all of what I have written should be capable of understanding that those Rabbis who agree with me are not necessarily 'thinking like goyim.'Daniel Westbrookhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14576308228864631191noreply@blogger.com