tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7186734097245460670.post4028837884853363669..comments2024-03-08T23:57:17.923+02:00Comments on Achas L'Maala V'Sheva L'Matta: De'ja Vu in the CloudsYechezkel Hirshmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18417734718880643428noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7186734097245460670.post-6320782187330166972010-05-11T12:11:59.100+03:002010-05-11T12:11:59.100+03:00Just a little housekeeping comment: The original c...Just a little housekeeping comment: The original criticism of the hashgacha pratis story was not written by me. I found it at the Daas Torah blog, who in turn got it from Rav Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer, [ http://rygb.blogspot.com/2010/04/great-miracle-of-volcano-shutdown.html ]who in turn found it as a comment. I reprinted it for you because I was very interested in your take on it. I just rejoined the conversation now. Thank you for discussing it at length.NCO Chassidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7186734097245460670.post-2415580151230037012010-05-03T20:44:44.638+03:002010-05-03T20:44:44.638+03:00The fact is that every time I hear stories like th...The fact is that every time I hear stories like this, I IMMEDIATELY have the thoughts, "what about the Holocaust, what about the Holocaust, WHAT ABOUT THE HOLOCAUST!?" running through my head. True, through out history many individual people suffered from disease, pogroms, oppression, exile and the such. But the Holocaust is a gigantic black hole...calculated, industrialized murder and torture on an unprecedented scale. And it struck the very center of the Jewish world...the top scholars and the most pious, learned communities. I find thinking about it too much is not good for my mental and spiritual health.<br /><br />Maybe many observant Jews succeed in putting it out of their minds, or ignoring it (even though halacha demands we confront it every year in the run-up to Tisha B'Av), but it is always out their, hovering over us.<br />I particularly respect Rav Eliezer Berkowitz because his writings ("Faith After the Holocaust" and others) are infused with a deep conciousness of it (he barely escaped its clutches himself) and yet it did not diminish his love and enthusiasm for Torah and love of the Jewish people. However, his writings do show a deep seriousness and I strongly feel he would have been troubled by the story told here, just as I and others have been.<br />To tell the truth, I have always had problems with those who push the line "Judaism is fun" along with "Uncle Moishie"-type songs. I have tried to teach my children that we follow the Torah because it is true and it is right, not because we enjoy it, because, frankly, observing Torah and mitzvot is not always fun or convenient. It is for this reason I have always opposed those whose educational approach includes telling untruths to students , "in order to keep them frum", because if Torah is truth, what kind of an example is it if parents or teachers are found to have deceived their students? Simlarly, I have no patience for religious anti-Zionists because one of the ways I overcame the Holocaust "black hole" was by seeing how G-d gave "Am Israel" another chance with the rise of the state of Israel.<br /><br />The bottom line is that educators and Rabbis need to be very cautious in how they try to use emotions in order to supposedly strengthen faith and yirat shamayim. They need to stand fast on the truth and not use stories that open up serious questions which bring the very things they are trying to push into question, without them being able to confront those that arise.Y. Ben-Davidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7186734097245460670.post-90071254950155605312010-05-03T17:59:04.514+03:002010-05-03T17:59:04.514+03:00:)
and to the substance of this idea? (after all,...:)<br /><br />and to the substance of this idea? (after all, Rishonim did believe in the idea of hashgacha klalis in many situations...)<br /><br />kt,<br />joshjoshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7186734097245460670.post-5921796138090712572010-05-03T17:48:20.244+03:002010-05-03T17:48:20.244+03:00>>My guess is that you are not understanding...>><i>My guess is that you are not understanding him correctly.</i><br /><br />Anything is possible in this mysterious world of ours (with the exception of facilitated communication). Perhaps our Chassid will check in and settle the score!Yechezkel Hirshmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18417734718880643428noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7186734097245460670.post-58875962653916265242010-05-03T17:26:11.958+03:002010-05-03T17:26:11.958+03:00"If I understand him right, his question is b...<i>"If I understand him right, his question is based on the assumption that this story is meant to be drama with a happy ending which we are celebrating. Thus he is disturbed at the idea of celebrating one person's triumph at the expense of others."</i><br /><br />My guess is that you are not understanding him correctly.<br /><br />Rather, his point is (or well *could* be) that this does not necessarily demonstrate Hashgacha Pratis at all.<br /><br />There is some major event. It effects hundreds of thousands of people. For some large percentage of people, it effects negatively. For some large percentage of people, it effects them slightly in either direction. <b>None of those people are posting their stories on the Internet.</b> For some vanishingly small number of people, it effects them positively. Those stories get proclaimed on the Internet as examples of hashagacha pratis for positive benefit. But how can you know this, and that the person was not just the lucky recipient of hashgacha klalis, when you start out with so many people effected by a macro-scale event?<br /><br />that is what i think he he meant by<br />"and we are encouraging people to identify (<b>as if they could</b>!) `hashgacha pratis' in their lives"<br /><br />and if it *wasn't* what he was asking, it still is a good question.<br /><br />kol tuv,<br />joshjoshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.com