Arrur Makkah Re'eihu B'Seter - Part 2b: The Mother of All Jewish Chat Groups

 

In our previous post, we noted how prevalent are the dangers of Makkah Re’eihu B’Seter (MRB) in the Jewish chat forums.

We discussed two levels of MRB: (1) Basic – when the “victim” has access to the discussion and is able to participate (2) Advanced – when the “victim” does not have access and cannot participate. The previous post presented one offender at the Basic level. 

The second, and more sinister culprit, fits the bill as Advanced Makkah Re’eihu just like the appalling Tea app. I will refer to this web site as The Mother of all Jewish Chat Forums. Like the Tea app. Only women can be members, and like the Tea app, it isn’t very secure. Unlike Yeshiva World News, this site is nothing but a chat forum.

The site looks to be multi-layered. There are a number of forums on innocuous domestic topics such as Recipes, Shopping, Household Management, YomTov and Shabbos, Hobbies, Social Scene, etc. which are accessible for viewing by anyone on the Internet. One only needs to have membership in order to post on it. Some more sensitive topics like Marriage and Relationship topics, Emotional Health and women’s health and halacha issues are only accessible to members, even just for reading (this makes sense). And it looks like there are some highly sensitive Private topics that even a member needs to apply separately and qualify for. 

On the one hand, the more exclusive the topic, the more it is susceptible to MRB. Yet ironically, on the other hand, the free access forums may be the bigger problem since the material posted there can be found and viewed by anybody – male or female, member or non-member. Thus, anything derogatory about Abe can be found in search engines and be seen by anyone, i.e., a larger population.

To drive the point home, I will repeat the warning that I quoted in the previous post from the Yeshiva World News Coffee Room rulebook:

This is the Internet and everyone sees what you write. Ve’Hameivin Yavin.

So, let’s say, Abe himself happens to stumble across it, and he wants to set the record straight, he is not allowed to do it on this site – at least, not on his own. This was my predicament back in March 2008. 

 

Incidentally, it looks like the site is moderated for offensive or damaging content by some senior members, but there is no indication that there is any Rabbinic (or even Rebetzinic) supervision.

My book was initially released in October 2007, and I did not decide to start a blog until July 2008. As is normal for a new author of a new book, over the first year I was googling it up on a regular basis to see if it was getting any attention and publicity, good or bad. Hence, one day in March of 2008, my google search displayed a hit from a site called www.imamother.com. The link led to a free-access chat forum called Reading Room and the topic was about recommended non-fiction books. A poster who I will identify as IOW wrote as follows:

I just finished One Above and Seven below. It is an attempt to explain Charedi outlook to frum, non charedim. Found it pompous, condescending and somewhat off base.

I love compliments. 

Seriously, everyone is entitled to their opinion. Nobody needs to like my book. The question is, should they announce it on an Internet chat board?

Let me point out that this chat thread was a long-running thread. It opened on Jan 7, 2008 and it ran until Aug. of 2011. The Original Poster (OP) opened the thread as such:

Please post those non-fiction books that you think were terrific. If you have the author's name and can write a one-line description of it, that would be great 😊

Thus, the thread began innocently enough, and it was meant for women to post names of books that they like and would recommend. It was not meant to post names of books the reader did not like. Most of the posts were nothing more than the titles of one or more books and sometimes the names of the authors. The majority of the books listed were secular non-Jewish ones. 

As I was reviewing the thread, something caught my eye. One poster early on (that first day) recommended a book titled Freakonomics. 

For context, Freakonomics was published in 2005 and was number 2 on the NYT Best Seller list in 2006. By 2009 it had sold over 4,000,000 copies and turned into a multi-media franchise, with a sequel book, a feature film, a regular radio segment on National Public Radio, and a weekly blog. A friend lent me the book and I read it through and found it very informative and thought-provoking. All good.

Three days and numerous book titles later, a new poster on this thread, who I will identify as CM, got on and wrote only this: 

I did not like Freakonomics.

This poster wasn’t recommending any books, nor was she giving any objective reasons why not to read it. It just didn’t suit her. She did not bother to explain why.

Excuse me? Who asked you? This thread is meant to be a list of books that posters recommend because they liked them. It is not meant to be a thread of critical reviews on books. 

I wondered, what could be her whole purpose even to post this comment? It’s a foregone conclusion that some people won’t like any given book. This could apply to any book that is recommended. Why does she have to tell the world that she didn’t like this one? Especially without explaining why. Who on earth is she helping? What we need to know is that the one who brought it up did like it. And it happens to be quite a popular book. What is she trying to accomplish?

Now, this book is a totally secular book but there is a good chance that author 1 – Steven David Levitt is Jewish. Author 2 – Stephen Joseph Dubner is definitely Jewish although his Jewish parents left Judaism. I strongly suspect that he is related to Ethel Rosenberg. 

When the author is clearly Jewish, regardless of whether he is observant or not, there is certainly a prohibition of LH if true, SR if not, and MRB in all cases. Even in the case of an upstanding non-Jew, it’s not clear that there is no issue of Lashon Hara (I know, the pasuk says לא תלך רכיל בעמך.) Even if there isn’t, it's not a good habit.

Likely that CM wasn’t aware that at least one author is Jewish, but it didn’t end there. Sometime in April of 2008, the original poster (OP) of the thread, recommended a book by an openly Jewish male who I will identify as DK. He was not just a Jewish male, but also a convert who is entitled to special consideration. The OP liked the book. Comes back CM and she writes:

I stopped reading him, I found him very Not Jewish 

Careful, now, we are talking about a convert.

B”H, the OP called her out and said:

Stopped reading him or this particular book? He's Jewish. Doesn't seem right to say that about him.

CM responded:

but his books were so NOt Jewish, dh [dear husband] requested I not bring them home anymore.

Hold on, the majority of books recommended on this thread are not Jewish. And didn’t she read Freakonomics? Did her “dh” approve of that?

Let’s be dan l’kaf zechus and say there is validity and toelles to what she is saying. Maybe readers should be forewarned that she thinks the book is not so “Jewish”. (Don’t forget, we are talking about a convert who wasn’t brought up Jewish, for Heaven’s sake!) And it’s certainly important to obey one’s husband. Besides, her information is firsthand and to the point, so it may meet the basic conditions. But still, what about condition number 3?  Was this male convert ever informed about this comment. Was he given the opportunity to get onto an exclusive women’s forum and defend his work?

Makka R’eihu B’seter – L’Mehadrin.

Now, let’s return to my case.

There is one slight difference between the infractions of poster CM and that of poster IOW who criticized my book. CM’s subjective comments were in reference to books that other posters had previously mentioned as recommended books. Once they were mentioned, she wanted to give her personal critical opinion. Balance.

In the case of poster IOW, nobody mentioned my book (only 5 months off the press) earlier in the thread. She is not responding to anybody’s recommendation. She brought up my book all by herself in order to dis-recommend it. This, on a thread intended for recommending books.

I am proud to say that my book was the only book mentioned in the entire thread to earn this distinction.

Before I continue, it is time for a quick summary of what One Above and Seven Below is all about.

In Vayikra 26, HKBH sets up two camps. One is the One Above or Im Bechukosai Telechu camp which is the camp of those who follow His commandments (and study Torah). This camp gets His blessings.

The second camp is the Seven Below or V’Im Bechukosai Timasu camp. This is the place for everybody who does not live up to the Im Bechukosai Telechu directive. This camp is cursed.

I must stress that HKBH set up these camps. I did not. I am only disclosing what it says here. At the end of the book, I comment that I am not placing anybody into either camp. Each individual needs to understand the definitions and determine on their own where they stand. The idea is to get everybody into the One Above camp for their own benefit. Nobody is barred from getting into the One Above camp. It just takes a little bit of work (toil).

The inevitable result of this is that, as long as some Jews do not comply, there will be two classes of Jews – the One Above or upper class, and the Seven Below or lower class.

For people who categorize themselves into the One Above camp (upper class), this is a real “feel-good” book. And it’s right on target. For those who categorize themselves into the Seven Below lower class, the book will obviously make them feel inadequate. It’s a “feel-horrible” book. But the idea is not to make anyone feel horrible. It is to motivate them to get themselves into the upper class. The doors are open. Tickets are available to all. They are not beyond anybody’s budget but they are not cheap. One needs to pay the price.

It's like a physical fitness book. First it tells you what is called physically fit (in shape) and what is not. Then it tells you how to get physically fit. It clearly let’s you know that you are out of shape, but it is not meant to make you feel bad, rather to motivate you to get into better shape. My book is the same thing in Spiritual fitness.

So, now, let’s look again at IOW’s post:

I just finished One Above and Seven below. It is an attempt to explain Charedi outlook to frum, non charedim. Found it pompous, condescending and somewhat off base.

As of now, Sept. 2025, my book has been out for almost 18 years, and I can confidently say that nobody who identifies with the One Above camp thinks that my book is pompous, condescending, or off base. If anybody thinks that way it is a clear announcement that they see themselves in the Seven Below, lower class, camp.

Mighty sad.

So here comes a poster who tortured herself through my [whole?] book and, in a thread about recommendations, needs to say that she felt the book is pompous and condescending. She feels that the book is telling her that she is “out of shape”. She doesn’t seem to realize that this is what it is supposed to do.

I read this in the women’s forum and felt “emasculated”. Nobody previously recommended the book so there was no opposing “One Above” viewpoint. There was no indication that anyone else on the thread had read my book at all, so there was no chance to get a counter opinion from inside the group. 

I felt the reader was misrepresenting what the book is really about and was presenting a distorted picture. The purpose of the book is to help people understand Judaism, and if one discourages reading it, this will deny that benefit from anyone who would otherwise gain from it. She was hurting not just me but also any potential “satisfied customers”. And, as a male, I was locked out from be able to come to the rescue.

Makka R’eihu B’Seter.

May I comment that I discovered the post by a simple innocent Google search. Outside of my discovery, not one human being – male or female – ever, ever contacted me to notify me that this post was written. Thus, technically, the MRB is in effect to this very day!

Anyhow, I was lamenting my poor predicament when it dawned on me that I just happened to be married to somebody who has all the qualifications to be a full-fledged member. What a coincidence. Here, we call it “proteksia”.

I decided to take advantage of my proteksia and had my ezer kenegdi sign up as a member. Then we formulated a response. Let’s just say it was a joint effort. Here is the response:

I also read One Above and Seven Below and I thought it is an eye-opening book. I know what you mean about being pompous and condescending, I mean the author wrote on the first page that some of it is patronizing and in his forward he calls his role as a Rabbi and preacher "pretentious" so I suppose we should expect that but why do you think that it is a little off base? I thought it was right on the money.

Her response:

It is right on the money if you are the same type of Charedi he is - Anglo yeshivish. Not true about the other 95%.

Okay, so now it is on base but only for 5% of the chareidim (Anglo-yeshivish?) but not the “other 95%”.  

The funny thing is that I defined a Chareidi as one who buys into G-d’s One Above camp. And 95% of “chareidim” don’t do it? So, it’s been 18 years, and I have yet to meet the devout chareidi, of any “stripe", who does not buy in to Im Bechukosai Telechu as defined by Rashi.

Subsequent remarks by this poster revealed that she missed the whole point of the book (she probably just skimmed through it), but the same revelation meant it was useless to get into a debate on a women’s chat thread.

This is not really the first time that I called out the transgressions of this particular web site. I referenced it in my 2023 post Irreversible Damage. Here is what I wrote:

I am aware of an online chat forum strictly for frum women. I became aware of it many years ago when one member critiqued my book. (That part of the forum was accessible to anyone). I promptly directed my wife to become a legitimate member. Ever since, if I needed to, I could find out what the “ladies” have to say on a topic that I might be dealing with. You can bet that I “peeked” into the threads about Malka Leifer.

Regarding Malka Leifer, there was a protracted thread about the involvement of Rabbi Litzman, after that there was a more recent one celebrating the extradition and now one celebrating the conviction. As expected, the prevalent attitude is approving, celebratory and even vindictive although there are always some lone level-headed posters who may challenge some points and say this is not something to celebrate. Those few usually get gang tackled. The titles of the two last threads are indicative of the mood: “Finally! Extradited” “Finally! Guilty.”

In all of these threads, the most prominent victim of the LH, SR and, for sure, a lot of MRB, is Mrs. Leifer herself. Technically, she could join the forum and respond for herself, so it would only constitute the more Basic MRB – as if it’s no big deal. But we note also that Rabbi Litzman was singled out in one thread and honored to be named in the title. This is Advance MRB L’Mehadrin.

I reviewed that thread and, small consolation, very little of it actually discussed Rabbi Litzman, although any amount is too much. But the posters of that thread also mentioned another Rav in Ashdod and it was not to compliment him. Moreover, one poster even referenced a few of my blog posts on the topic and those didn’t get much praise, either. 

These are the transgressions that I am familiar with but there are constantly topics on the site that deal with “recommending” books and other products, restaurants, schools, camps, yeshivos, Rabbanim, lawyers, toanim, therapists and other professionals. I am sure it is primarily well intended and most of the reporting is positive, but as the saying goes: where there’s a will, there’s a won’t. This is another way of saying that whenever someone has something nice to say there is usually someone else who has an axe to grind.

It goes without saying that this kind of abuse is occurring on all types of social media especially those with exclusive groups like on WhatsApp or Facebook, but these monetized Web-based sites draw in a lot more unsuspecting customers who inadvertently join the wolf pack. When we are talking about Orthodox Jewish (“frum”) sites, not only does the Satan generate all this Makkah Re’eihu, but it causes a chillul Hashem to boot.

So, what can be done about them?

As usual, I am way past my allotted post length, so it doesn’t pay to discuss it right here. I hope to cover it in a future post. In the meantime, the best thing is to simply stay away from these poisonous chat forums.

ארור מכה רעהו בסתר - ואמר כל העם אמן!