Monday, June 15, 2009

The Lunatic Club

My previous post drew numerous comments. Becaue of the outwardness of the post, I am more inclined to directly respond to the comments than in some less essential posts.

The following is part of a comment posted to the post. I initially wanted to respond in the comments section but I newly learned that there is a limit of 4096 characters to a post comment and I exceeded it. And so I will post the response here in a new post.

The comment was:


"That's right. I am in cahoots with Fishman , Rav Amnon Yitzchok, the "Tzaddik nistars", the autistics, Chamish and all the other doomsday preachers and I am not afraid to admit it."

but the tzaddik nistar was shown to be saying falsehood. rosh chodesh sivan came and went, and people are still making aliyah. are you willing to state that the Tzadik Nistar was a lunatic?

See also comments from Ari, Baruch and Baal HaBos.

Now, my response:

Why don't you ask me a better question: Since all the time the "Tzaddik Nistar" was preaching R"Ch Sivan, the autistics were saying , "We don't hold by timetables", ergo, they are not in sync with each other, so how can I be in cahoots with both of them?

But, in Talmudic fashion, the kasha points to the terutz. And this also addresses the first question by Baruch, as well:

There are 2 aspects to theses "doomsday" preachers - (1) Their message and (2) their predictions. I buy into their message, but I have a guarded view on the predictions.

If you follow the autistics they have one major message: Every Jew ,if he knows what's good for him, should do teshuva and come closer to Hashem. People who remain distanced will have less chance of surviving the chavlei mashiach. This message is in line with chazal in Sanhedrin, Sota and Shabbos as well as in divrei neviim. They are just saying that the time is real close. As a secondary agenda, they are pushing 3 issues - to be mechazek in chessed, tznius, and to come to eretz yisrael. The only thing that I really took out of the "Tzaddik nistar" was another voice on the advisability to getting to eretz yisrael.

The arichus in my post with how I saw things in 1997 was trying to point out that I personally felt this way, way before I ever heard of the autistics or the "tzadik nistar". I am merely recruiting them as allies. As far as predictions, I never relied on them and, as the autistics say, make your judgements based on what it says in the neviim and chazal and on what is going on around you.

Also, just as many chashuva people have predicted the arrival of mashiach and it has not yet come but we believe it will - IOW, don't brush off "good" predictions just because somebody's "deadline" has passed, I don't think it's a good idea to so quickly dismiss some negative predictions just because their "deadline" passed. The gemara says that Ikvisa d'Meshicha and milchemes gog and magog will be horrific ordeals and we need to be zocheh to be saved from them, who needs deadlines?

Now, back to the Obama Deception, let me say that I heard about a push for a "Global Economy" or world government before I saw this (which was just last week, BTW) and the FEMA "Concentration" camps. As I said in an earllier response, the parts that impressed me were the statements made on camera by Obama, Kissinger, Imannuel and the cult-like worship of Obama. Again, most of these things I was aware of before I saw the film. The film just jazzes it all up. There is just too much of this "conspiracy theory" that isn't theory to brush it off. The economic downturn is very real, and if it was orchestrated, it's very scary. Anti-semitism is growing eveywhere, and this was not even mentioned on the film.

As for Ari's comment, I (and the autistics) are not trying to insinuate that the Jews in these other countries are not in just as much danger, just the opposite, it is Ari's "sanguine" perspective that somehow the American Jews are any bit safer that the autistics are trying to combat. As you can see, I am a "student" (and first generation descendent) of Holocaust history and the "It won't happen here" card was already dealt and lost. If that's all that Ari has to rely on, he is walking on thin ice.

Anyway, to summarize, my feeling is based mostly on maamarei chazal and neviim, historical precedent, and intuition. I don't need anybody's predictions. I only draw on these other sources for "comraderie". The more voices say the same thing, maybe somebody will listen.

So bottom line, it's too early to say if the "tzadik nistar" is a lunatic and so what if he is? I still agree with his message. I truly feel that every Jew should do teshuva, be mechazek in chessed and tznius and I also think that a Jew who is not already in Eretz Yisrael when things get really difficult, will need to have extraordinary zechusim to get out.

The only question is - are things really going to get that difficult?

I don't know! But I am not waiting around the US to find out.


joshwaxman said...

why recruit lunatics? if i have a valid point, would i bolster it with "look, the people in padded cells in Bellevue are also saying this"?!

and you are not reading the autistics carefully enough, probably because you like the echo chamber, ignoring the very real halachic and hashkafic problems (which were stated explicitly by the rabbonim who gave their haskamahs). their idea of "teshuva" is to adopt precisely *their* form of Judaism, such that people who follow their own Rabbanim doing things at odds with the words of the autistics are in need of teshuva. (do you eat pizza and drink soda?)

"So bottom line, it's too early to say if the "tzadik nistar" is a lunatic and so what if he is?"
it is too early?! how will you ever identify a navi sheker?! he said that after Rosh Chodesh Sivan, it will be too late to make aliyah. And yet you are encouraging it, implying that it is possible. There have been many flights in which people have traveled to Israel since Rosh Chodesh Sivan.

"The more voices say the same thing, maybe somebody will listen."
does that include the voices in your head? linking to 9/11 conspiracy theorists does not make the message more credible. why do you think including voices of clear lunatics will *increase* the chances of the message being heard? rather, it becomes the message of lunatics.

Why not get some serious voices involved. What do the Gedolim have to say? What do they say in Lakewood? What does your rebbe say?


Ari said...

Since you've gone Talmudic on me, let me hasten to point out that I never said I was "sanguine" about the safety of North American Jews. I said I was "more" sanguine about their fate, compared to those in other countries.

That said, I guess I just didn't draw the same sinister conclusions you did of the celebrations exhbited by Obama supporters when their candidate won the nomination.

And yes, I am perfectly aware of the fallacies of a false sense of security, such as those that existed in Germany, where widespread assimilation was assumed to provide protection from persecution.

As for the safety of Jews in Israel, until Moshiach arrives, I believe that they have the same, if not greater, mortal risks as their brethren in the diaspora. Yes, the land is intrinsically holy, and the amount of Torah learning there is unparalleled, but until the fellow rides in on a donkey blowing a ram's horn, I can't say that I'd feel more secure over there than here. If anything, I'd feel as if a well coordinated attacked would be like shooting fish in a barrel. You of all people should know how vulnerable we are, anywhere -- but perhaps especially in the modern state of Israel.

I think your aliyah advertising strategy may have be a shade more upbeat to be successful.

SJ said...

* yawn * there's always doomsdayers.